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7/11/2012 2:35:50 PM,
Old PRE-ALPHA topic
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94 months ago by
ScottCFR
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It's came to my attention that you've silently bumped back the release date. I don't know if there's a communication problem, or you forgot how to post a thread. Anyway, I do think this is unfair to the people who have pre-ordered the game; and I'm sure they will agree with me. This game has a ton of potiential, and I'm eager for it's release. (On another note, you bumped up the release of the MMO. ARE YOU DRUNK!?)
I do have to say how badly this community is being ran. The current community manager isn't doing much regarding the well being of the forum/site. There are ridiculous topics being created, and they're quite annoying.
Also, I've figured out that Marek doesn't like his role as C.E.O. in the company, that he likes to jump from Dev, back to C.E.O. then to Community Manager. Take some advice Marek, pick a role and stick to it. I suggest you take on the role of developer, and hire in a C.E.O. This is what created Mojang's success, Notch hired in a C.E.O instead of running the company and developing the game.
I ask the community that's still around to support me, no one else is saying anything. This "indie" company is taking a corporate aspect to it, lying.
One more question, is this an indie company? Indie companies are self funded, and don't accept investments. To my knowledge KeenSW has accepted several large investments to fund this project.
Scott Wheeler
MinerWarsFactions Project Coordinator
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94 months ago by
Scuderia
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well,
as per the previous thread that ultimatley spawned this, I *was* doing my best to hold my tongue - however I guess when you have spent money on something, that does come with certain expectations, which scott is bringing up
Whilst I dont think all of the below is for discussion publicly, I would like to add to this thread now that scott has provided a spark.
The release date thing really pissed me off, not becuase of the delay itself, but primarily becuase I was the one who pointed this out in the first place to keenSW when basically I had said do you still expect to keep to the current March release date (honestly knowing there was no way IN HELL the game was coming out in March) - at which point I was told of the 4 month delay. And then....No announcement, no communnication, no information to the thousands of people who were expecting to jump into this game in march, there was just a minor change to the about and store pages correcting the dates. Not good enough.
The sheer amount of people I personally pointed to the about page and said "look - they've changed the dates" who were all commenting to me about being really excited to play the game at the end of march - lets just say I had to dissapoint alot of people and thats not my job!! The fact as a regular member I had to explain to so many people about the delay becuase keensw seemingly tried to hide it or detract attention from it.....again, just simply not good enough)
This is kind of like how you made a sticky/news update on the about page saying new faction prefabs in a week. Then a week later, new sticky saying GDC and no new updates until your return. I then posted questioning the faction prefab update linking to the original sticky - at which point keensw just delete the sticky and completly ignore my post? When all im trying to do is veryify the conflicting information you have provided? Not good enough.
(Yes c.mgr has now posted days later but i'd already chatted with Marek about the issue but despite that - the information from the community manager in that post was actually wrong - work does seemingly stop when marek leaves the office as the update we were all told to expect never came - again, I dont give a flipping crap about the update, and/or not getting new content. I can happily wait while playing eve and BF3. Its how the community is being handled and informed in respect to these things)
Scott is correct in the observation that the community manager seems to come and go as he pleases...going on several month hiatus' and then coming back for a few days. There is no moderation or development in this community/forum whatsoever.
I'm not going to comment on the CEO thing becuase its a very touchy subject, but I will say that Notch didnt make himself CEO of Mojang for a damn good reason. He isnt a CEO, he's a programmer. Thats what he's good at and thats what he does.
I will not be a yes man any longer. The way the community is being managed and developed is just shit.
"Ridiculous topics are being created"
-that made me hardcore lol
I only say all of this becuase I want MinerWars, and keen software, to be successful. However having a few million lines of code doesnt equal success.
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94 months ago by
JanJirkovsky
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Greetings guys,
in many points, you are definitely right.
1) as to postponing the final release date - The development takes a lot more time than we originally expected. One thing is official announcements/press releases, which were silent as to this. What I mean is that we did not want to announce the delay aloud. Rather we just keep working on updates and new stuff until we come close to the final release. The other way around, I think the community representatives (active supporters) like Scuderia, Varge and others should be notified as to this - and to my surpise you guys didn't know about it (?) (and other stuff going on). For this case, I suggest we communicate a lot more over skype/personally (directly with me, Marek or someone from the development team).
2) "work does seemingly stop when marek leaves the office as the update we were all told to expect never came" - As to the new test build and stuff - we decided to make a new test build tomorrow, that is Tuesday (hopefully everything goes fine).
3) "at which point keensw just delete the sticky and completly ignore my post" - I am sorry about that, but actually I don't know what post. If there is something important you need our attention to, really please skype me, otherwise it is just possible to overlook something. The point is that our Community Manager checks the forums, but at the same time he isn't with us in the office all the time. That way, generally only me and Marek know all that's happening with the development, but at the same time - we have loads of work and we cannot check all forums. I know this is our problem and a subject to improvement, however, please take patience and especially those of you, who have personal contact with us (Scud etc.), please use it and don't rely on replies to the forum posts.
4) As to the community manager - I will check on this with Marek as well, since it definitely needs a bit more attention and overseeing the forums. I try to help with this myself, however, as mentioned before, I am mostly stuck with development + press people.
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94 months ago by
Varge
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a good forum lies at the base of a good community.
besides that i don't mind what the guys do as long as they deliver, not my company altough they could use some help in management.
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94 months ago by
MemoryThief
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We welcome any feedback! Get everything off your Chest, and breath easily.
I'm going to try to objectively answer this, since this could be touchy all around.
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here, but I'm all up for communication. As for my hiatus I recommend you message me personally on why, But I do admit to having not been here for a month or few... Again private reasons. Expect the next month to be just as spotty ;/
QUOTE: Yes c.mgr has now posted days later but i'd already chatted with Marek about the issue but despite that - the information from the community manager in that post was actually wrong - work does seemingly stop when marek leaves the office as the update we were all told to expect never came - again, I dont give a flipping crap about the update, and/or not getting new content.
You do give flipping craps, otherwise you wouldn't have made the post... And this is good. This shows how much you want the community to thrive. I've wanted this a long time ago, the community and the game has vastly changed, this is the third boost of people who are trying to correlate things here, so the community is just starting to thrive. Interesting how you claim to know things you have limited ties to, you're basically calling everyone in the team flakes; OR you're asking to be released an unfinished build. Do you really believe that Marek leaves and the team stops?
QUOTE: I do have to say how badly this community is being ran. The current community manager isn't doing much regarding the well being of the forum/site. There are ridiculous topics being created, and they're quite annoying.
Fact: We don't delete posts.
Fact: We won't delete posts...(unless they're lewd, in which case, they're not here are they...)
Fact: People think ALL I do for KeenSWH is this Community Management... which is not the case.
That title is a bit of a misnomer, It USED to be that I was the only DEV on the forums making consistent posts... This changed once Marek decided to start reading/responding more often, and I'm glad to see the other members of the DEV team more active than I for once. I do some PR and Marketing, as well as delegation and of course Community Management. But we all have lives right?
Also by 'ridiculous topics' I hope you don't mean ignorant posts, everyone herps a derp now and then.
QUOTE: The sheer amount of people I personally pointed to the about page and said "look - they've changed the dates" who were all commenting to me about being really excited to play the game at the end of march - lets just say I had to dissapoint alot of people and thats not my job!! The fact as a regular member I had to explain to so many people about the delay becuase keensw seemingly tried to hide it or detract attention from it.....again, just simply not good enough)
Starting with your last statement, Perhaps we ourselves didn't foresee this delay... The fact you went out of your way to point out to 'alot of people' is... great, but you're right... it isn't your job. Perhaps you may be spreading information that is non-factual, but at least you're adamant enough about it to try to sum it all up. Plus as Jan put you're not a regular member, you're a 'community representative,' which gives you a tad more clout.
QUOTE: I will not be a yes man any longer. The way the community is being managed and developed is just shit.
Good because Yesmen are annoying... and unrealistic. Now lets take this to the next level... I read much complaint, but not much resolution. If YOU were a Community Manager... what COULD you do with the same ability you have now? I see you help people on the forums often, give your comical two cents, and you are interested in the DEV's progress. But with all your posts, you turn around and call all that crap? I'm glad to make a more frequent appearance then...
QUOTE: Also, I've figured out that Marek doesn't like his role as C.E.O. in the company, that he likes to jump from Dev, back to C.E.O. then to Community Manager. Take some advice Marek, pick a role and stick to it. I suggest you take on the role of developer, and hire in a C.E.O. This is what created Mojang's success, Notch hired in a C.E.O instead of running the company and developing the game.
So you're saying if YOU had a company, your map to success is to do what Mojang did... not that it's a bad way to go about things seeing as they are a success, but the conditions of our marketplace and audience is quite difference. Having known Marek for a bit, you may misunderstand how his view of the company works into his position of multi-hat-wearing-guy. Plus it's hard to say what a person likes and dislikes, like seafood...(which I'm having Marek eat while he's near the ocean for once...)
QUOTE: I ask the community that's still around to support me, no one else is saying anything. This "indie" company is taking a corporate aspect to it, lying.
If there are people who see the argument, please help.
QUOTE: One more question, is this an indie company? Indie companies are self funded, and don't accept investments. To my knowledge KeenSW has accepted several large investments to fund this project.
Not sure where you got your definition, but an Indie company is one that is just starting up, and by the definition of wiki... "Independent video games (commonly referred to as indie games) are video games created by individuals or small teams without video game publisher financial support. Indie games often focus on innovation and rely on digital distribution. Indie gaming has seen a rise in the last few years, primarily due to new online distribution methods and development tools."
So by that definition, YES we are indeed Indie... Since we have no 'publisher financial support' or much of any publisher until recently. We use digital distributions and are trying to focus on innovation.
QUOTE: As to the community manager - I will check on this with Marek as well, since it definitely needs a bit more attention and overseeing the forums. I try to help with this myself, however, as mentioned before, I am mostly stuck with development + press people.
Yes, we defiantly need to talk Jan... I have... Issues with my account.
I suppose since we're all getting excited about 'enhancing' things, I'll add to your list of things the DEVs should read... ;)
I used to make public meetings where we the DEVs would voice chat with the public and answer your questions real time... This was a good thing to look forward to for both parties. Lately the project evolved, and the communication we used to have via voice somewhat faded away. I know at the office the Devs talk amongst themselves, but We used to have Frequent meetings where we would all be on the same page on things, and this faded away to just using text. It would be great to have those public meetings again, but the demand on either side has diminished. This WOULD provide that communication that is lacking between the two groups.
Anyway, you might want to take into consideration I'm up at 2:50AM writing this, and the first day of GDC is today, did you guys even take into account perhaps going to GDC might have been a priority for us? And perhaps a day late release isn't the end of the world, so you can't harvest the earth yet. ;)
-The most horriblist community manager evar!
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94 months ago by
ScottCFR
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I do agree that this may have been a bad time to post this, due to GDC and all. But, you've actually caught your self in a few lies.
QUOTE: Fact: We don't delete posts.
Fact: We won't delete posts...(unless they're lewd, in which case, they're not here are they...)
So what your saying there is that Scud is delusional and never made a post about the release date being knocked back?
QUOTE: as to postponing the final release date - The development takes a lot more time than we originally expected.
I understand this completely. I'm a developer myself, have been for a long time. I understand how dates can be underestimated/overestimated. But, I'm not worried about the date being pushed back. I'm more concerned about the lack of communication between the community and the dev team.
QUOTE: If YOU were a Community Manager... what COULD you do with the same ability you have now?
If I were CM, I would NOT take on more then one job. You and Marek both have the same flaw, you both take on too many roles and forget about the original one.
QUOTE: Having known Marek for a bit, you may misunderstand how his view of the company works into his position of multi-hat-wearing-guy.
In that case, Marek has a very bad taste in hats. He needs to pick a style and stick to it. This game/community won't get far with someone jumping roles every two weeks. I speak that from experience, I've owned/managed several companies relating to game server hosting, web hosting, and game development. The reason there was no success was because I jumped roles often. I'm not trying to be a hypocrite, though I'm making myself sound like one. I've realized my mistakes, and I'm trying to point them onto you.
I'm not perfect - no one is. I'm not saying that the staff needs to be. I'm just saying there is a great wall of communication between the development team and the community. That's something that the CM needs to be in charge of. Communicating important events between staff and communitys.
In no way am I trying to bash anyone, but things need to be said and change needs to happen.
Scott Wheeler
MinerWarsFactions Project Coordinator
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94 months ago by
Scuderia
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Whilst I do admit I have only briefly skim-read the responses, I would only like to add:
I was caught out at a bad time, and had I been thinking clearly I wouldnt have posted the above publicly, and felt incredibly guilty for it the following day.
The timing was utterly inappropriate and although I did not start the thread, completely agree it should not have been posted until after GDC, if publicly at all. But Scott is passionate (personal friend of mine) and clearly wanted to be heard.
I dont think anything I posted was out of line or inaccurate, but this was not the place for it.
Upon reflection of a few things, I'm returning to Eve in full swing and so will be stepping back from MW and probably wont be around for a while. Wishing everyone the best of luck and the most success.
Cheers
Scud
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94 months ago by
MarekRosa
CEO & Creative Director
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Hi Scott,
I didn't read the whole post and all responses to it, guys just pointed me on that CEO and multiple-hat thing. So, can you explain it more? What leads you to assuming that I do multiple roles? Are you assuming that I do actual programming + business + community management?
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94 months ago by
MemoryThief
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The 'lie' you caught me in, is a reference to a now necro-post where we discussed which conditions we would or would not retain information on the forums... We keep all posts that are constructive, however under certain very rare conditions we will remove them, which is basically never. We try really hard not to... If you want to know how many posts we've actually deleted on the forums total to my knowledge, it's defiantly under 10 posts. This is the type of community we want, one that's open with our feelings.
There should be no shame in expressing one's feelings and concerns.
Things are constantly changing here, and when we're 'not communicating' chances are, they're changing a lot.
GDC is going pretty well, we've gotten pretty good responses so far... ;)
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94 months ago by
ScottCFR
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QUOTE: What leads you to assuming that I do multiple roles? Are you assuming that I do actual programming + business + community management?
Scud is a pretty good friend of mine, on top of that we're starting a company based around MW. We do communicated about things that are said between you and him. He's told me multiple times that you run between programming and CM. I could unload a ton of skype and msn logs. I hope you do go to programming and leave C.E.O. to someone else; or go to C.E.O. and let the people that already have jobs do what their supposed to.
I'm glad GDC is going well, I'm hoping for a good response. This game has a ton of potential if everything gets straightened out.
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94 months ago by
MarekRosa
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I have no idea why Scud told you I go between programming and CM. I don't even remember that we spoke about me and programming. Moreover, on my blog I posted that I can't do anymore programming and need to do leader/CEO job only. In other words, I don't do programming anymore and this whole "CEO thing" must have been some misunderstanding between you and Scud, or me and Scud.
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94 months ago by
Gridlost
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Please Pardon my interruption Gentlemen. But, perhaps this is a good time to take this discussion to a more private chat arena. As cool as it is to see the CEO and community Coordinators, Both Keen software and player Coordinator Scud,work out some issues; It may now be doing more harm to the community than help, to have this further aired in public.
It say much about your willingness to stay involved with your customer base. A rare thing these days.
Sorry to butt in and be so forward. I just didn't want to see this get anymore ugly in public. ^^
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94 months ago by
MarekRosa
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Gridlost,
I agree, issues like this one should be discussed in private. My last comment was entirely to help explain the situation, perhaps make a piece... I have zero interest to fight with our community :)
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94 months ago by
Saorlan
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Guys and in particular MemoryThief - what a terrible response to the poster who is trying help you out by pointing out that you have zero community management going on here. The responses you gave are all disjointed and uncoordinated. The CEO guy did not even read the post?!
Sort yourselves out.
If you are going to delay the game then say so. How could it have been ready in march, the idea is absurd. Tell us something about the MMO, in fact just communicate!
I hope this all works out but this thread leaves me thinking I have spent money on yet another indi flop.
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94 months ago by
MemoryThief
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My apologies for using any sarcasm... But the only thing really hurting the community at this point, is you guys. I would also like you guys to stop picking on people and try to welcome them into a good community that you would want to see, instead of what you're doing now.
I appreciate the points you made about how the community needs work, and I'm trying to push a new forum system through which will enhance both of our experiences... but please note that these forums are custom and doing things like simply moving a post from section to section is not possible. We have to trust our users to post in the right places and deal with people making double or even triple topics over the course of time...
Please don't shoot our users down, or diminish the experience of coming to our site with malintent. But we do appreciate the critique as we're always trying to do things better. It wouldn't hurt to have some more community members look out for one another, I see it here and there...
There will be an announcement about the release dates following this wake later. I would like any further comments and suggestions to improving our community in specified posts or via IM. Let it be.
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LOCKED
7/11/2012 2:35:50 PM,
Old PRE-ALPHA topic
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