Miner Wars - Forum - Utility Ship Concept

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LOCKED 7/11/2012 2:35:50 PM, Old PRE-ALPHA topic

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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!==!==!==!==!==!==!==! ATTENTION BEFORE YOU READ THREAD !==!==!==!==!==!==!==!

This model and design has been scrapped, so unless you want to know what NOT to do, I suggest you to not waste your time. Thanks a bunch.:)

@============================@ ONCE UPON A TIME... @============================@
Hey, as you can guess, I'm kind of new to this site and 3d modeling as well. Just wanted to post a quick sketch of what I got in my head at the moment, before I get too hopeful.:)

Description: This is a rough concept sketch of a utility ship that I would like to have a shot at if it's acceptable. THIS IS A ROUGH SKETCH. I KNOW IT IS SLOPPY. IT TOOK ME ABOUT 20 MINS TO DO. THIS IS ALSO NOT THE FINAL DESIGN.

============================================ 1st Pic =======================================================
TOP LEFT: 3/4 view of pilot section with visor up and down (I was thinking maybe the visor drops for more protection, idk)
TOP RIGHT: 3/4 view of entire concept (Pilot highlighted
MIDDLE LEFT: Front view
CENTER: Back view
BOTTOM RIGHT: Quick render of upgrade possibilities.

QUESTION: I read somewhere that the models have to fit snug into a sphere for physics simplicity so i was wondering if maybe the ship would be comprised of 3 or more such spheres that are loosely connected like a truck and a trailer. I was kinda thinking, (no I didn't hurt myself) that you could upgrade its different parts like when u level up or something.

(I know I didn't cover everything so please ask questions. I'm better at answering questions than summarizing)
E-mail: Goblet_holdr1@yahoo.com

Ship3.jpg

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113 months ago by
Chebar

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welcome to the forums. I think you have a cool idea. This link should help you with most of your questions about how we want models to be made. http://www.minerwars.com/ManualFor3DModelContributors.aspx I would like to see a more refined sketch. Keep the updates coming.

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Hey, thanks a lot for the link. (looks a little intimidating but I'll try my best!) Here are the plans for the remaining two pieces. Any suggestions or tips? I'm all ears-no wait, eyes. :P

Thrusters.jpg

Manipulation.jpg

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113 months ago by
Chebar

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I think you should start modeling this ship. I like your design. I can give you tips as your modeling it, so keep the updates coming.

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113 months ago by
Azurren

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I agree,
Your concept artwork looks amazing! I would love to see some of your final work!

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113 months ago by
Swampfox

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DEFINITELY go ahead with the 3d modeling. Those designs look pretty epic.

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Like I said I am new to 3D. That being said it might be a while before I get enough know-how to actually make the thing to a point where it is presentable. I just wanted the green light before I got started. I'm using Blender 2.52 alpha and anyone interested in giving me tips for modeling are invited to E-mail me.

My first question: My previous models have all been composed of manipulated cubes and spheres. None of which were actually connected to each other, but on some tutorials I have seen people make their own shapes by extruding verticies on a 2d plain, then extruding that into 3d. Either way I don't see me making this all in one mesh, so I need to know how to fuse two meshes together as well. I just wanted to know what other people did.

In a nutshell: do I make this out of the default meshes and if so how do I make them into one mesh, or do i draw the ship vertex by vertex. I know there are a billion tutorials out there,(and I have been watching them) I just don't know which ones are good and relate to what I am doing.

Again my E-mail is Goblet_holdr1@yahoo.com

Thanks a bunch.

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113 months ago by
Chebar

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I haven't found a good game modeling tutorials yet, but what I would do is model it the best you can and I'll try to help you as much as I can. A perfect game model should be all connected, but by doing it this way you use up a lot of your poly count, so you need to find a balance. The way I learned was I made a base shape and just started shaping it. Start with your cockpit and have fun with it.

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Ok. Thanks for the tip. I'll get started post what I got for you to comment.

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Alright. Nothing much by any means but this is what i have done so far. It's taking a little longer than i thought it would but I got something done and that's what counts. Pretty much all that's there is the shape of the glass and the main lights. The poly count is 1052 after converting to tris. I think I did this in 2.5 hours. I tried rounding it off a little bit. Definitely needs more beveling or something. I'm not sure. This is my 2nd time using the program, and the first was a simple graph so that barley counts. 2nd pic is colored so u can distinguish between the different parts.

Utterly failing or good start?

SlowGoing.jpg

SlowGoing2.jpg

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113 months ago by
Chebar

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good start. I wouldn't add any colore to your model yst. it makes it hard to see the true shape of things. So far the only think I can see is that when you converted it into tris, you can use less tris and get the same effect.

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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ARRRRRRGH! After two grueling hours of reducing polygons not knowing what I'm doing, I finally go to move some faces, and presto! a whole slew of hidden faces and verts. I then was forced to reconstruct the back, which I am still trying to do. I finally got some sense in me and started using booleans. anyway, enough raging.

as you can see. still nothing much done. I managed to put the tanks on the back. I'm changing up the design a little bit, especially on the sides. maybe some more tubes.

My poly count is around 2600.
I've spent about 6 hours in all.

Hopefully we will get somewhere tomorrow

thanks.

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Here you go

SlowerGoing.jpg

SlowerGoing2.jpg

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113 months ago by
MemoryThief
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Nice low poly model, I like where it's going, keep it up!~

Reminds me of a underwater searching sub. ;)

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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You know, I was just in the process of constructing the door when i realized how big this thing is really going to be when the whole thing is put together, and i was thinking that maybe this could serves as a towing vehicle like a tugboat for big ships or maybe used for large debris, or maybe, if you get blown up near a baseship, you can have the choice to salvage some parts from your old ship to cut the costs of buying a new ship or to retrieve some of your equipment that you lost and one of these guys goes out to gather whatever it can. Idk. Just a thought.

littleman.jpg

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113 months ago by
Darghan

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Thx man keep working. The thing looks exciting!

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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I might not know what I'm doing, but I have an eye for what I want, and I won't stop until I can achieve it. I just hope I get it done in a reasonable time frame. :(

Thx for support though!

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Ok. Finally getting somewhere. I got the visor thing, the 2 grated vent thingies and most of the sides done. I also installed the door in the back and touched up the lights a bit. Now all i have to do is model the remaining cables, finish up the sides and then model the adapter (the part that will connect to the other modules. look at the original design if you're confused) on the bottom. It's now getting to an almost complete stage! MY FIRST REAL MODEL! Under the surface it probably is messed up somehow, but if you guys don't use it I certainly will.

Question: In the original plans, I had the visor go up and down, But I don't know how to make rotatable parts. This got me to thinking of just leaving it up there, but I need to know what you guys think. I also have no experience to speak of when it comes to texturing, so any tips would be appreciated. or maybe you would like a shot at texturing it urselves, if u do just ask and I'll see if I can post the .blend file. (I'm using blender 2.52 Alpha BTW)

Total Polys: 4948
Time: 10 Hours

thanks.

yay.jpg

yay2.jpg

yay3.jpg

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113 months ago by
Chebar

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very nice, one thing that stands out to me is the top visor is to thin. As for the textureing part, if you can texture it then please give it a shot. Your model has a better chance of getting in if it is textured, but a untextured model can still get used. If you would like me or someone on the team to review your model then post it in fbx format.

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Ok. I'll give it a shot. I would very much appreciate if someone could list the order of the texturing process. and the best way to go about UV mapping.

The number of polys right now is 5381; mostly tris but what I'm working with currently is all quads.

I'm currently trying to make a cage around some of the exposed parts but I keep getting stuck. I still have to model the bottom part and the rest of the cables but you can take a look if you like.

Tell me what you think.

Hey I finally got a name for this thing. Multi Use Module System or MUMS

Cage.jpg

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Well no one has replied for a while so I'm just going o update the model. the poly count is going to be close. I'm at around 7600 or so now but I still have to model a couple cables and the bottom. The cables I think will take 600 so That really leaves me with 1800 for the bottom and whatever other details I decide to put on.

Anyway, I haven't been working on the project quite as intensively because of other responsibilities but I managed to touch up the back and fix the normals. I won't begin to texture until I'm finished.

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113 months ago by
Sykes

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I wish I was artistic :[

Keep it up, man! The devs may not respond super fast, but don't slow down! They're just busy! If you get it finished, you could very well fly it around in the actual game! (and maybe even get yourself a free copy of the game, if you submit enough models!)

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113 months ago by
Sykes

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(accidental double post...)

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Well at the rate I'm going, the next two models (since this is a three-parter)will be done in a week or two, depending how long it takes me to texture since I haven't done it before. Now if all three of those count as one, well then since this all together would be 30,000 polys, I guess I could submit 2 models every week and a half. who knows; maybe three will get picked. I also wouldn't be flying the thing unless you will be able to operate a defenseless mining drone in the game. I originally designed it to be NPC driven.

At any rate I finally finished up the wiring in the back. (now we get a/c lol) Now all i have to do is the module adapter on the bottom with only 1500 tris left. Wish me luck! :)

Alltiedup.jpg

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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YAY! The first part of three is DONE! My FIRST real model coming in at 9650 tris and just under 15 hours wasted!
Here's sum pics. those little box things on the sides are computer terminals, I ran some more cables as you can see and I have the adapter ready and waiting to get plugged into my next project. But it will have to wait until I have a shot at texturing this thing. Thanks for putting up with me thus far. Hopefully it will be worth it. Here's an updated file so you guys can look it over and tell me what needs doing. Any of you guys out there who think you can texture this are welcome to do so but make sure to e-mail me your results before posting them here.
My E-mail once again is Goblet_holdr1@yahoo.com

Thanks again! :D

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113 months ago by
Blarget2

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very nice ;) (now all that needs to be done is texturing)

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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I discovered that some of the polys were, in fact, not tris but quads. I converted all to tris but now my count is 10435. I'm now in the process of reducing the count, looking for unneeded faces. In other news, I discovered that there is indeed a smooth shading option so I'm also trying to smooth out the glass and cables.

duh.jpg

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Ok, finally got it down to 9997 tris. Here is the updated file and I can finally start texturing!
Please tell me what you think so far.

MUMS.fbx

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113 months ago by
Chebar

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cool, I'll try to look at it today. great job

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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I saw what you told DrRobotnik and I have to confess that my model has a lot of strange tris as well. This is partly because I don't exactly have any experience in 3D modeling so i don't know what tools are at my disposal, and because I'm kinda in a hurry to start on the next project. But if it really needs to be done, I'll pause my texturing and get to work simplifying the model. If some one can texture this for me that would be totally awesome but if no one can, I understand. I accept the fact that this is my project alone and no one but me is responsible to see this through.

Again, I still need to know how to texture properly, so if someone could please tell me the method the team has used on all their ships so far, it would be very much appreciated.

Also note that my next semester of college classes start in a few days so the level of time I put into this will significantly decrease. I'm still set on getting this done however, and will fit it in wherever I can. If I get better acquainted with 3D modeling maybe my productivity will increase, but as my skill level stands right now, that is not likely going to be the case.

Thanks again. :)

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113 months ago by
Chebar

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I'm not sure how to explain this, but I'll do my best. you want to remove all tris that are not need to maintain your intended shape. You also need to be carefeully that you don't have any tris that are overlapping. You can google z fighting to learn more about it. I'll try to make a paint over to show you what I mean.

As for the texturing, you'll need to make a uv map the hard way. you will need to make your seems and unwrap it. Don't let your program unwrap it for you. everything also needs to be on one map. Besides that its up to you. its your ship so color as you wish. I hope this helps.

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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ok. I'll get to work on those. I already know about z-fighting. I just don't know how to check for double faces. I try rendering it in blender's game engine but it looks fine and I know I can't be that lucky. I did come across double faces early on which I took care of, and I told you guys on the thread, but i came across those by accident, and I don't know how they got there to begin with so I couldn't know where to look for them.

If it wouldn't be any trouble, could you look at the model and show me where you find some?

at any rate, I can see a lot of unnecessary faces, and I'll spend a couple days working on that, I just wanted to know two things.
1. is the over all design solid and does it stand a chance when it is finished.
2. how can I improve on the next model. (in design and method; how can I avoid double faces and unnecessary faces?)

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113 months ago by
Chebar

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not sure why but I get an error when I try to open you model. Can you try to export it again. Not sure if you did it this way but can you select the ship then export only the object not the whole scene.

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Ok, so i did a test. I opened a new file and exported that into fbx. it worked then. so there is something wrong with the mesh itself. What could be the problem? I also have learned that the normals on the bottom and some of the sides are backwards. I recalculated the entire mesh, and they flip to the right side, but others flip the wrong way. would this have anything to do with it? I'm thinking there's and opening somewhere in the mesh but I have no idea how to find it.Is their any incite you or someone else might have that can help me?

MUMS.fbx

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Ok, I tried opening the fbx file in blender and the python scripting says at the end
"ImportError: No module named _socket"

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Ok, i found the problem. I made a few test scenes in blender containing a single cube. In the 1st test, I deleted one face to see if the problem was that the mesh is open somewhere. I exported to fbx and opened it up in 3Dmax and it worked, so the problem wasn't that it was open. My 2nd test was to reverse one of the normals and that one still worked, so the normal problem isn't stopping it. in my 3rd test, I selected 2 veticies and extruded them but didn't move them, then i connected them to form a line occupying the same place as a face yet not connected. When I went to import that one, i got the error, so my problem is that somewhere in the process of extruding vertices,I accidentally extruded them twice so there are vertices and lines that are occupying the same place. I will have to make a thorough search that will take me some time. In the mean time, I'll reduce the poly count. While you wait, Here is a 360 view of it. (set it to loop.)

Presentation1.wmv

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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ok. After about 5 hours of fiddling, I still have not fixed the problem. Here's a pic of the error I get before the program crashes, and I would like to ask anyone with experience with blender 2.5 and can find it in their hearts to help a noob in need, PLEASE E-mail me at Goblet_holdr1@yahoo.com. I'll send you the .blend file for you to look over and try to spot what's wrong.

Thanks a bunch.

error.jpg

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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YES! I've done it! I exported a 3ds and imported it into 3dsmax, then i exported the .fbx and wen I tested it, I got an error, but it opened! ok, I have gotten rid of almost all unnecessary verts. it's still kinda messy and I'm in the middle of re-modeling the sides cause they were really messed up in the original, but it's pretty much ready for you to at least look at. I'm well under the poly limit now, so I'll have space to put some more details to make it look a little more realistic. (if that's possible) I'm kinda going for a well worn functional style, but I guess that's exactly what you guys wanted anyway isn't it?(i was thinking of what to compare it to and the only thing would be like old construction equipment)

anyway,
I have found out online that the error was caused by too complex of geometries for that format (at least coming straight out of blender) I also learned online that the method I used to get it to .fbx will not be able to transfer UV from blender, so i will have to texture it in 3ds max. (yay, more life)

I am so sorry for the wait. I have had no experience before this mesh in either program let alone both, so I have come a very far way but I still have a long way to go. Also, I just started a new semester of college two days ago so my life is pretty much gone for now. I'll try to squeeze this project in wherever I can though.

looking forward to your response :D

ship.FBX

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113 months ago by
Chebar

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Cool, i'm glad you figured it out. I'll take a look at your model tonight after I get out of work.

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113 months ago by
tastetherainbow

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Very good, I havn't tried modeling but I may try it soon, keep up the good work I like the idea.

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113 months ago by
SteakStyles

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As you could tell from the model, I'm re-designing the vent thingies. I modeled them back in the beginning before I knew much at all so they were really messed up poly wise. I'm now making it more... venty? Here's a pic of the current progress and the general plan drawn on top. now it might eat up my poly count right up, but i may be able to get some more details in when I'm done before I can Legitimately start texturing. All this trouble for part one. Can't wait for part TWO! If this thing gets accepted that is. :(

vent.jpg

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112 months ago by
Chebar

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very cool model, You planned on this ship to pull other parts? If so I think you should add a hitch of some sort to the back. You have a lot of tris that are not needed. I would go through your ship and remove any egde that doesn't control a shape. One thing to keep in mind is that you don't have to connect everything. Faces can float through one and other as long as they don't run to close on the same plain.

Its looking real good, after you fix a few things I'll show it to the boss and see what he says.

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112 months ago by
SteakStyles

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The faces don't need to connect? wow, that would have saved a few...days.

anyhoo, thanks.

The hitch is that thing on the bottom. Here's a quick sketch for ya to show you how it would connect. (again, sloppy-fast :P) The connection I was thinking would be like a cage around cables. Easily detachable and interchangeable. In all my drawings I have them kinda far apart so You can see them better, but they would be more crunched together in the game.

Believe it or not, I got rid of about 90% of the unneeded faces. almost all of those actually define part of the shape. Of course, if they all don't really need to connect, well, i kinda want to move on. I'm currently re-designing the side vents so I'll go over it a couple more times before I send it to you.
Also, regarding the texturing, Since I am unable to do it in blender now with the .fbx obstacle, I now have to do it in 3ds max, so what little experience I had with texturing in blender is now useless and I will have to start from scratch in 3ds max. You said I have to unwrap it by marking seams or something? anyways, I know I won't be able to pick texturing up like I was able to with modeling, so is there any chance the team can review it textureless? at least, until I can learn how and come up with one? (just letting you know, I am absolutely horrible when it comes to color) Any pointers would also be most welcome.

Thank you again.

SloppyFast.jpg

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112 months ago by
Chebar

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i would rather review it before it gets textured. that way if there is any problems with the mesh, we can fix them before you start laying out your uv map. When you get ready to start laying out your map I'll try to sxplain it the best way I can. But for now I think you should keep rolling on the design.

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112 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Alright, Finished the side vents. I got rid of around 220 faces. From what I can find, all the verts that are left define the current shape. The tri count is 8465. If it doesn't check out, show me where I need to work to make this as efficient as possible.

MUMS.FBX

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112 months ago by
Chebar

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you model looks good, one thing that I would like you change before I send it to the boss, is on your cockpit glass. If you could add bars to make it look like its panels. I think it would look better.

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112 months ago by
SteakStyles

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My original design had those. I just didn't know how to do them and didn't want to risk the poly count. I'll try to get that done and post it tonight.

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112 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Wow, that was fast for a change. Here you go.

MUMS.FBX

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112 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Bumpity Bump bump. Oh, and working on next part!

ThrustersPart1.jpg

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112 months ago by
SteakStyles

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OK, I'm stuck on the designs for the thrusters and I need your help. These are important because they will determine my design for the rest of the section, partly do to style and amount of tris. I have several ideas, but I couldn't choose between them so I modeled them all for you guys to tell me what you think. I encourage anyone to participate. You don't have to know 3D to tell me what you think.

Also please note that any of these can be modified in any way, so if you see one you kinda like, tell me what I could do to make it better.

Ok, first off we have the thrusters themselves. These will be kind of tucked away into the thruster casings in the back.

Then lastly, we have the casings. Right now I have only 2 modeled but more may be on the way. These things will house the thrusters. (the ones inside are just spacers)

Thanks, I'm anxious to hear your replies.

ThrustersSide.jpg

ThrustersFront.jpg

ThrusterCasing.jpg

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112 months ago by
ZiggyPox

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i love shape of D thrusterm but A looks better at front. B casing looks boring :P.

Anyway, how you are doing with bevel modifier? In previous versions i was able to apply them to choosen edges, now i have to use moddifier :/..
And everything is in one mesh or you are just joining them?

BTW i LOVE this material you are using on casings :D (and this "black-edged" render option)

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112 months ago by
SteakStyles

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to me honest, I don't exactly know to properly texture things so what you see here was an experiment, fiddling with a bunch of settings.

To answer your question about beveling, I wanted it to apply to only certain edges as well. But selecting them in edit mode didn't work and adjusting the seam like you do with sub-surfing didn't work either. As a result, I rarely use the bevel modifier (maybe like, 3 times?), and I only use it at the very beginning of the mesh. All the "beveled" edges I do manually by extruding the face and sizing it down, or loop cutting and deleting the corners.

Lastly, ever since my adventure with booleans in my last model, I tend to make it all in one mesh if I can. The hydrolic tube things are a separate mesh, but that's because they are moving parts.

Hoped that answered your question.

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112 months ago by
Chebar

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i like e and b. the side view of b could be better but from the back I the 2 of them, and I like the right one from your second pic.

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112 months ago by
SteakStyles

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@Chebar

Hey, did they review the first model yet?

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112 months ago by
Chebar

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I have and I've posted it to the rest of the team. I think you need to do something with the visor. Not sure what yet, but I'm think about it.

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112 months ago by
SteakStyles

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I apologize in advance if I sound a little short. I would really appreciate some feedback. I've been working extra hard at work and school so I can set aside time to work on this and I'm forced to wait and find something else to do because I don't know what You want me to work on. I know you have a life too, but I have made my own time for this, putting aside things I would like to do only to have it wasted merely because I don't get a response.

I make it a point not to be complacent, but I want you to know where I am coming from.

You have told me that there is something wrong with the visor, but you did not specify as to what the problem was. Let's start with that. Another thing I would like to know is what the development team's other thoughts were exactly so I can better asses what I am doing right or wrong in my designs.

Again, I apologize. I hope I am not being too unreasonable. I think I have been patient enough for once.
Please respond in a timely manner.

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112 months ago by
ArtimusBena

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You're starting out very well as an artist, you do seem to have a natural gift for it, and I don't doubt that you'll get better.

However, quite a few of us have reviewed and discussed this model, and although this design does have some interesting qualities, the overall design just isn't workable for our project, or malleable enough to be so. You will find this happening quite a lot with even the experienced modelers if they don't start from approved concept art. As we say, sometimes it's better to scratch it and move on.

About our delay in getting back to you: It's not simply that we have 'lives', because that almost implies that we are working on this project on the side. Make no mistake, we have no lives :P If we're late in doing anything, it's because this project IS our life (literally, for some people, including myself; I have no other job), and a lot is going on right now. It's really like a Hollywood movie set at the moment. I don't wish to make you feel less important, but we really do have a lot of work to process already, processes changing, (and you really have no clue how tedious this processing is), heavy business and marketing matters to attend to, etc.

Now, if you wish to continue, we will happily review further models.

There are pages and pages of requirements each modeler has to satisfy for a model to be approved, even before texturing. Some basic advice:
Currently we are looking for
*realistic, gritty designs
*high poly/lots of details, large and small

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112 months ago by
SteakStyles

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Thank you for your response. That's exactly what I was waiting to hear. I'll scrap this model and get to work on another, more detailed design. Until then, would you kindly look at my other concepts and express your opinions and/or suggestions, and whether or not they are up to standards? That would be greatly appreciated. Here is a link to the thread.

http://www.minerwars.com/ForumTopic.aspx?id=814

Also, could you tell me briefly what you liked and didn't like specifically about the model so I don't repeat my same mistakes again? And if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you respond to me via E-mail? Again my email is Goblet_holdr1@yahoo.com

Thank you again

Also- Don't take my message to mean I am unappreciative of your work. I can only imagine how much is on your plates getting your own game off the ground. There can't be anything easy about what you do and I respect that. I also don't want to come across as an attention seeker, far from it. All I want is to know what you guys want so i can stay out of your hair and get it done.

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112 months ago by
Chebar

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I'm sorry about the slow responce. After posting your model to the team we decided to make a new art/ model doc. Things have been a little crazy but I should have the doc very soon. once I get this doc done I think it will make it easier for everyone to see what we need/ want. Sorry again.

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112 months ago by
SteakStyles

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@Chebar

It's alright. I'm sorry for venting. (nice to know that's as bad as it gets with me :D) I just had no idea what was going on so I didn't know how to feel except annoyed. All I want to do is contribute what you guys want, but I need to know what that want is first. In any case would it be too much to ask for a way I can contact you directly? I promise I won't spam you, and I'll only use it in an emergency. You wouldn't have to post it here, just send me an e-mail (Goblet_holdr1@yahoo.com) I'm looking forward to working with you some more.

Thanks

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94 months ago by
davevanos

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I realize this is a dead topic, but I wanted to tip off Steak and anyone else who might be suffering from verts occupying the same space. In blender you can elimate all of these by selecting the entire mesh in edit mode and using the "remove doubles" command via the space bar. You can adjust the range of the effect in the operator panel after entering the command.

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LOCKED 7/11/2012 2:35:50 PM, Old PRE-ALPHA topic

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